Surviving the heat

00:01 Tiahni Adamson: So we are in the thick of really dense Mallee scrub on the way out to a pretty incredible property. At Secret Rocks where, on a beautiful dirt red road at sunrise, it's a pretty beautiful time of morning to be awake. I'm really grateful we had to get up this early. Today, get ready to get dusty. We're on Barngarla Country on South Australia's Eyre Peninsula. Desert country - a place of red dirt and amazing animal life. 

Before clicking record you have heard me squealing a lot this morning going 'Oh, my God, I'm so excited. I hope we see a Numbat. I hope we see a Bilby'. But this place gets hot. Really hot. We're just waiting to make sure that the gate closes behind us to make sure that nothing slips in that isn't supposed to be in here. It's really important that this site stays excluded from any animals that aren't supposed to be in this area.

The story of this reserve is another podcast in itself. It's owned privately for conservation by two incredible nature warriors, one of whom will meet shortly. This fence we've just passed is almost 2 metres tall, and it curves back on itself at the top. It's the real deal, and inside is an exclusion zone designed for research purposes where it's possible to study native animals in a controlled environment away from common threats like foxes and cats.

It's a 4000 hectare living arc. Today we are looking into some of the research going on here. Climate data shows we've already exceeded 1.5 °C above pre-industrial levels. This is likely to get a lot worse. It's a big scary global problem, unless you've been living on Jupiter, you probably know the gist I want to explore the implications of these climatic changes on a more local scale. 

What do hotter days and more extreme weather mean for some of our native species that already live in extreme weather environments? What does it mean for the people who look after the landscapes we rely on and that rely on us? And what can we do to mitigate the impact?

Climate change is here. And you've heard all about what that means? Warmer temperatures, extreme weather and biodiversity loss. But what about biodiversity as a solution in and of itself, this podcast is about where nature and climate change intersect. Join us as we traverse the back roads. Of this magnificent continent, finding the stories of hope that we all need right now. I'm Tiahni Adamson and this is Big Sky Country, a podcast by Bush heritage.

You can see the house on the right-hand side. Little shed, little house. Yeah. What a beautiful place to live. It doesn't take long to bear witness to the full scale operation that is Secret Rocks Homestead.

03:37 John: If you could just maybe just reverse back there and then just scrub that a little bit.

03:41 Tiahni: Awesome. Thank you. What's happening on the ground right now? You've got a bandicoot in a bag.

03:51 Katherine Moseby: Yeah, we went out this morning and checked the traps. Well, actually...

03:53 Tiahni: Catherine Moseby is here with us. She was once described as the most innovative conservation scientist alive.

04:00 Katherine: We've checked the traps and we've brought back a couple of bandicoots to put in the respirometer chamber.

04:06 Tiahni: We're surrounded by all sorts of machines I've never seen before.

04:07 Katherine: ... shelter during heat waves and we put all that together to sort of get understanding of how animals cope with extreme heat and what we might expect.

04:17 Tiahni: Her projects, current and past, are generally formed on the basis that it's no longer enough to just protect species. Humans are going to have to intervene to help species adapt. So we sit before a snazzy looking chamber. It's a carefully controlled box where an animal is gradually exposed to rising heat and monitored by expert scientists to see how it responds.

04:39 Katherine: And we can measure body temperature all the time, so we can keep a really close eye on how he's going in there and ambient temperature and body temperature.

04:47 Tiahni: It mimics the hot weather that is becoming all the more common out here. But don't worry, the team went through rigorous protocols to ensure the safety and ethics of the research. The animals are only exposed to temperatures that realistically occur here and that aren't distressing to them. In this case, we're looking at a very rare and very cute Shark, Bay Bandicoot. One of four threatened species that Catherine and John have reintroduced to their fenced safe haven.

05:13 Katherine: So we we're seeing certain behaviours happening at certain temperatures. And some of them are probably related to thermoregulation, so we're interested to see how you know they cope with that... 

05:23 Tiahni: The Shark Bay Bandicoot is now only found on an island off Western Australia, a long way from here in desert South Australia, because it was wiped out locally by feral predators. Those predators are still out there beyond the fence we drove through, constantly looking for a way.

05:39 Katherine: So we'd love to have Numbats outside our fenced area and bandicoots outside our fence area. But at the moment, as soon as they would get out, they'd probably get eaten by a fox or a cat. You know, these are some of the most threatened mammals in Australia here the Numbat and the and the Shark Bay Bandicoot. In fact, we're going to go out and try and catch a Numbat.

05:57 Tiahni: Yes, we will.

05:59 Katherine: If you guys are up for that. 

Tiahni: Catching a Numbat is not a task I can say I came prepared for now. Numbats are gorgeous, extremely rare animals. There are only two small populations of naturally occurring wild Numbats left and they're in Western Australia. Catherine and John have reintroduced some here at Secret Rocks.

06:16 Katherine: They have been reintroduced to a few safe havens... Yep, got you.

06:26 John: In a big stump, big hollow, live trees.

06:32 Katherine: Possible to extract?

06:34 John: Well, probably give it a go.

Tiahni: Something exciting's happening through the radio. What's going on there, Katherine?

06:41 Katherine: John, can you read out the coordinates? So we've been looking for this Numbat. This is one of the ones we released last year. And he's been avoiding us and evading us for a long time. And we've finally found him this morning. We need to change his collar. He's got a radio collar on but it's going to run out. We're going to try and catch him and change his radio collar and release him into the new paddock, where there's a whole lot of females that we released this year. So he should hopefully have some fun over there. 

07:05 Tiahni: Mmm, have some dates. The team will have to spend some time at a safe distance, planning their Numbat heist.

So he was in a log?

07:17 Katherine: He's in a hollow he so normally the way you get Numbats out is you blow through a tube and they don't like having the air on them, right. And they'll run out the other side of the hollow and you catch them in a net. But he has learnt that if he just sits in the hollow that he can wait us out. So he's very smart Numbat.

07:38 Tiahni: Katherine, John and the team work in sweaty whispers for what feels like ages in the beating sun. Until half an hour later.

07:51 Katherine: You got him? That's it. Good work, everybody. Did not want to come out. Woohoo.

08:02 Tiahni: They are the humble sounds of numbat capture victory. I watch as the numbat gets a new collar, fitted with a tracking device. This will record data that will help Katherine and the team understand not only where he is but what he's doing and how active he is at different times of day and in different temperatures.

08:06 Katherine: And now we're going to have a listen and see if we can hear him after we've released him. Right, you take that. So those beeps are his signal. Alright. He's out that way!

08:32 Tiahni: New collar fitted. He's released back onto the reserve. 

08:35 Katherine: Hoping for the best.

08:37 Tiahni: Hopefully, to breed and reproduce. We retreat back to the house as the day gets hotter. We have a cuppa and prepare to meet a bilby. Sorry. Not the animal, the scientist Jack Bilby. And yes. That is his name and he studies bilbies.

08:55 Jack Bilby: So I'm a great example of nominative determinism 'cause I work on bilbies, rabbits and bandicoots for my PhD.

09:02 Tiahni: Jack is one of the team toughing out extreme temperatures to get to the bottom of this research.

09:08 Jack: It's very interesting to have it be, "Oh, it's going to be 45 next week. Let's go out during the peak of the day and see what the animals are doing." And they're usually doing sensible things like being in burrows while we're out radio tracking so...

09:19 Katherine: Yeah, that's very true, isn't it? It's like, "Yeah, I wanna work in heat waves..." I do remember thinking that when I got the grant, I was like, "Ohh, OK now I have to go out the middle of day at 45° and see what animals are doing!

09:30 Tiahni: Despite the science jokes, in reality Katherine and the team are worried about the warming trend they've experienced first-hand out here over many years.

09:39 Katherine: I've been working and living in the Arid zone for over 30 years and I've I've seen it get worse. The fires get worse, the heat waves getting worse, summer temperatures are getting worse, like it's just.... Overnight temperatures, and that's one of the things with heat waves is it's the overnight temperatures that are really the killer. Yeah, you do that for several days in a row, and animals just, even animals with access to water, just can't cope physiologically with that heat burden.

10:04 Tiahni: They might have successfully kept the predators out of secret rocks, but they can't fence out the heat.

10:09 Katherine: I mean, some animals probably can tolerate those hotter conditions and dry conditions better than others. But once they start getting really numerous and really hot, that's when you start to see animals like struggling and and dying. So yeah, not a good outlook.

10:25 Tiahni: Another aspect of the research Katherine and Jack are doing involves those fenced out predators. They want to know how native versus invasive species fare in hot weather. They pull out some very detailed looking graphs.

10:37 Katherine: Yeah. So we're comparing rabbits, which is an invasive species with bilbies, which is the native species, and we're looking at how they respond to heat waves and they're both burrowers, so they should be down their burrows during the day. But we're finding some pretty interesting differences that happen between bilbies and rabbits. 

But we're just trying to work out, under a warming climate, whether we might see one out-compete the other or do better under climate change than the other. Particularly as rabbits are are really common and widespread through Australia and bilbies once were very widespread and common throughout Australia. So they're very similar in terms of their body size and where they live. 

So obviously animals can die during heat waves, but it can also affect their reproductive rate, their weight loss, their body condition, their feeding, all that sort of stuff and reduce their foraging time. They might lose weight due to trying to cool down and thermoregulate. All that sort of stuff.

11:30 Jack: So maybe if the rabbits have access to water, as Katherine said, there's going to be more summer rain, less winter rain, then maybe the rabbits will be able to deal with heat waves during that time, potentially even better than the bilbies can. But then we're also going to have those long dry periods as well, where you've got more frequent droughts and they're going to be more intense. So there's going to be a lot of moving components that we're hoping to untangle by the end of this project.

11:56 Tiahni: It's not just rabbits and bilbies either. They're taking the opportunity to gather all sorts of data around how cats and foxes will manage the heat, too.

12:04 Katherine: Feral cats really need to get underground during heat waves, so they tend to use rabbit warrants so they're quite reliant on underground warren systems to get away from the heat during the day. And they just come out nocturnal and forage at night. If there were areas without those underground shelters that are large enough for cats, they could really struggle under climate change, which could be a good thing. 

But it's also a lot of other animals use those rabbit warrens during droughts as well, like even birds will go down rabbit warrens when it's really hot. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that a whole lot of things could come from this research. At the moment this is really just scratching the surface.

12:46 Tiahni: Being out here in this majestic desert landscape has been pretty beautiful. Alongside this inevitable feeling of isolation, there's a sense that life is all around us, forced to live by the cyclical rhythm of hot days and cold nights. Bound by the availability of water sources and hardened by the scarcity of food.

13:06 Gareth Catt: A lot of people think about deserts as being these dusty, barren places like the Sahara or the sort of the the images that you get from watching cartoons as a kid of Aladdin or something like that.

13:17 Tiahni: This is Gareth Catt from the Indigenous Desert Alliance.

13:20 Gareth: But the majority of our country, the interior of the country, has, you know, these incredibly beautiful woodlands, spinifex grasslands, the highest mountain ranges west of the great divide are in the middle of the desert in the middle of Australia. It's not like every season is regular and the same. It varies year to year, it varies with the timing and type of rainfall, and it's that subtlety in the way that the desert changes, which makes it really beautiful over time.

13:46 Tiahni: Gareth's job at the Indigenous Desert Alliance is all about helping Traditional Custodians look after country, from fire management, logistics, species conservation and advocacy. Gareth's on hand to help First Nations mobs with all of it. He's been living and working across the desert for years, and he knows both from his own experience and what he's learned from Traditional Custodians that the desert is changing rapidly.

14:12 Gareth: I don't think it's something that people necessarily acknowledge as climate change first and foremost. But people make these really insightful observations of what's happening on country and describe that reading country is much more difficult now than it used to be, and that the seasonal indicators are shifting and the timing of things has changed. 

Once everything bumps up a couple of degrees, and you start talking about the really hot days being 44-45 and things have still gotta persist in that landscape. The margin for life to be able to be comfortable is pretty small.

14:50 Tiahni: In this episode, we're talking to researchers about the way the animals react to climate change, but we know that to manage country that human beings have been a huge part of that. First and foremost, First Nations people and that we need humans to be out on country to manage country. Do you foresee less people being able to live and work in these conditions as climate impacts drive upwards?

15:15 Gareth: The people that I have worked with in the desert that I've been lucky enough to work with that have a strong connection to country won't abandon that. And they will always find a way to be able to work on country and and care for country. How we can continue to do that safely is another question. 

And you know those days that we're seeing which are really extreme, really hot, those periods where heavy rainfall and roads are cut off and food security is compromised and all of those sorts of things. You know, how do we supply secure water to those communities? How do we shore up the power system? How do we get solar panels on all of those houses? What can we do to make those communities much more liveable? 

It's difficult to worry about the values of country when you can't adequately live comfortably in your own home. And for desert, you know, country is home. It is really difficult to be out there without the services that the rest of Australia often takes for granted. And so, you know, providing more of that infrastructure more effectively and more sustainably into remote communities would be an amazing boost for the way that we can collectively look after country.

16:37 Tiahni: Back in Adelaide or Tarntanya, I sat down for a conversation at the University of Adelaide with Clive Hamilton, a professor and author, to chat about his latest book, Living, Hot: Surviving and Thriving on a Heating Planet. Clive's specialty is to approach these big issues through the lens of economics, politics and society. Clive doesn't pull any punches when he talks about the realities of climate change.

17:01 Clive Hamilton: We know the climate is going to change. If we're lucky, global warming will peak out at 2.4° say. More likely to go beyond. It's going to get really bad no matter what. So we have to prepare.

17:16 Tiahni: Like Gareth, Clive has a big focus on people and wants to know how we need to adapt to climate change while still trying to do what we can to limit how bad it gets.

17:26 Clive: And so it just says, well, you know, common sense dictates that we have to start now and over the next decades build an Australian economy, infrastructure, housing, but probably more than anything else, the kind of community that is willing to build and prepare for the climate that's coming down the road at us. So we must keep reducing our emissions. But the reality is that we're heading for a warm world.

17:56 Tiahni: What is 2.4° of warming going to look like for life on Earth, and how will that affect us and plants and animals?

18:06 Clive: So a baby born today will experience 7 times more extreme heat waves, and that's for a three degree world. If it's a 2° world, it'll be only five times more. If you look at all of the climate disasters, floods, fires and so on. Heat waves kill more - many more - than any other climate disaster.

18:31 Tiahni: Between 2006 and 2017, about 36,000 Australians died from heat related causes, which averages to more than 3,000 deaths per year. And the most susceptible to the worst of it? 

Clive: Older people, children, homeless people and people who are forced to work outdoors. So it's an extremely unjust form of climatic disaster. So building resilience is about social justice. It's how we're going to protect the most vulnerable. Otherwise they're on their own.

19:08 Tiahni: As humans, we have a better ability to adapt because of the technology that we've created and the way that we can use the frontal cortex of our brains. But what about plants and animals? What's going to happen in the heat for them?

19:20 Clive: Conservation is about protecting species in their traditional habitat. But what happens if their traditional habitat is changing and isn't going to be there anymore? What does it mean for conservation of vulnerable species? Everything... how we worked, it's all been built on the basis of the climate we had. And we're going to have a new kind of climate. More unpredictable. More dangerous. And we just need to get in our heads that OK any decision we make which is going to be for the longer term. We need to ask ourselves how is this going to work on a warmer world?

20:05 Tiahni: Clive's right. We do need to be asking that question. But it's a hard question to answer, right? However, effective us humans have become a pillaging it, nature doesn't make it easy for us to determine how it functions at scale. Nevertheless, the decisions we make in conservation to protect biodiversity are the ones that will lead to better climate outcomes. The team at Bush Heritage Australia are thinking big in order to strengthen the function of entire ecosystems.

20:35 Rebecca Spindler: Fundamentally thriving biodiversity will be more resilient and provides us greater resilience globally to climate change. And to separate the two is madness. We have to think about them as fundamentally linked issues.

20:55 Tiahni: One of the best brains and biggest hearts at Bush heritage is doctor Rebecca Spindler, or Bec. She's the Executive Manager of Science and Conservation, so she leads the team asking those big questions every day. And she often has the big answers.

21:10 Rebecca: I have a great deal of optimism that adaptation is possible and will be happening. And given that we're already seeing so many of these impacts, I'm sure the species are already adapting - both the plants and the animals. The question is, are they ready for the extremes? And in many cases, the answer will be yes, and in many cases the answer will be no. What is it that we can do? What are the resources? What are the tools? What are the strategies we can put in place just to tip that balance in their favour so they can survive those extremes to continue adapting.

21:49 Tiahni: Bush Heritages Science and Conservation team are constantly looking at the latest climate data, studying heat and rainfall patterns, monitoring short term and long term trends to understand what's happening across this huge continent. One goal in all this monitoring and research is to figure out with global warming which landscapes are going to change the most, which are going to be the most resilient and which are the most vulnerable. And when these questions are answered, the team can start prioritising certain landscapes that are best for ongoing protection and management. With help from supporters, we can protect them.

On the conservation reserves, Bush Heritage already manage, of which there are many, spread all over the country, covering nearly one and a half million hectares, the aim is to proactively respond to the needs of these places using the best science and data. In the face of climate change that might involve more than just protection. Straight out of the Katherine Moseby playbook, it might involve some intervention.

22:50 Rebecca: How do we build that resilience at that landscape scale down to if there are particular things that are just critical to protect in place? Either because they're drivers of ecosystem health or they're culturally and critically important. What do we need to do to keep that element there, whether that's a particular ecosystem, a particular plant, a particular animal species? Do we provide ecologically safe food supplementation or water supplementation or shelter or shade or do we soak an area so that we can make sure that there are viable plants and areas of an ecosystem so that there are also food resources, natural food resources for different species? 

So they're the kinds of questions that we're sorting through right now. Not wanting to play God, and not even wanting to stop adaptation to climate change, because it's only by facing these sorts of changes in in climate that will drive adaptation of species all by themselves.

24:06 Tiahni: As a thought leader in the conservation space, Beck has appropriately creative and novel ways of thinking about how we can apply science to solve our biggest problems.

24:16 Rebecca: We're building much more remote data and that certainly doesn't replace our experts out on ground on a regular basis, but it might tell them when is most critical to be out there and be observing what is the particular impact right now and what are the things that we should be doing about it?

24:38 Tiahni: To get even more techie about it, one way her team planned to actually pull this off is by creating digital twins of each conservation reserve. This would be a little bit like playing a conservation video game, but with large scale consequences.

24:52 Rebecca: We'll certainly deploy our on ground experts when we need them most, but then use satellite imagery and drone image analysis to understand when there's a change. That will get better and better. It will get to the point where we can even rely on drone images to probably detail what that change is, whether it's so we've got a green flush after after a rain event that was unexpected. Is that green flush what we want to be seeing? Are they the native species or are they a weed species coming in that we need to go and control immediately? 

That will get better, but right now it's very much a combination of - here's an early indication of a change that you might want to go and check out. And that means that our experts' time can be much better targeted and much better used at the moment where they're really needed the most.

25:40 Tiahni: It's not The Sims Conservation Edition, however fun that sounds, and it's certainly not Minecraft. It's real people addressing the biggest challenges faced by humankind on a scale that's almost impossible to quantify.

25:54 Rebecca: So much of what we do on a daily basis is addressing climate change. The most effective way to maintain the health of biodiversity is to protect good biodiversity. Absolutely make it better, augment, protect, enhance. There is a lot of work that we're doing to regenerate, to rebuild. To restore connectivity, I think is key to what Bush Heritage does. 

If you think about landscapes, and I often think about them like a piece of material. And if they're really lovely, tough linen, they will handle something being thrown at them. If they're lace work being pulled apart... if you throw something at a a piece of lace, it breaks. So by building that connectivity by making sure that species have the resources to not only stay where they are, but to move to migrate, to change, to adapt is going to make us all much more healthy and resilient into the future. And I think that is the fundamental business of Bush Heritage.

27:04 Tiahni: For someone so in the know about the realities we're facing, Bec is extremely hopeful that nature has the capacity to adapt. It's just a matter of ensuring its survival so that adaptation can run its course.

27:21 Rebecca: It's the extremes. I'm really worried about. And in order to adapt you need to survive. You know you. You have to be optimistic, otherwise you go you don't get out of bed. But I am optimistic for a change in the way we're thinking, but it will require that change for us to actually have a difference. And make an impact in our conservation work generally in the way that we work with nature and think of ourselves as part of nature. And take responsibility for trying to get that back on track. In a sustainable way. As well as dealing with climate change.

28:12 Tiahni: Working with nature and considering ourselves a part of it, there's something profound in that. I think one way to do that is to actually get out into it. As we did back at Secret Rocks. Feeling the pulsing Outback sun bearing down on our backs, its power is a reminder of how vulnerable we are to the cycles of nature. It's easy to forget when you're in the city, sheltered from the worst of it, but the heat is here and it's going to keep coming. 

Beck's blue sky thinking is heartening and motivating, but our time in the desert made the reality of climate change feel so palpable. The heat comes up and the literal physiology of these animals changes in real time, and we have the privilege of seeing this on a graph. But what real change could come of Katherine's research?

What's your big ambition with your research and will it determine or influence how you look after these species and where you can introduce them?

29:11 Katherine: Yeah, that's part of it. So the modelling will then be able to inform places that they might do better under climate change in terms of reintroduction sites. And they might be outside their former range, in which case it will be like an introduction. But that might be what we have to do to try and get these animals to survive.

Tiahni: So a large part of the outcome will be about where is suitable for long term survival of the species she's studying.

29:36 Katherine: The other thing we can try and do is reintroduce them to areas across their former range so that we can maximise that potential for them to change and adapt to different conditions. That could still help them in the long term overcome some of these effects of climate change. So yeah, all the research we do is design to help manage or mitigate these climate change impacts. That's what I'm focused on.

29:59 Tiahni: Once these reintroductions happen, then the study would also inform potential avenues of intervention. For example, lining the place with thermal nest boxes that better insulate shelter sites.

30:10 Jack: And the the flip side of that is then looking at the invasive species and how they're responding to these events and saying how can we better manage them under these future conditions and does it give additional opportunities to if the animals can be struggling in this period? Is this the time to crack down and initiate some extra management to potentially clear them from that area. But I think being on the ground and seeing, seeing those effects head on makes you want to learn more about it and what that might look like in the future, and what can be done about it?

30:41 Tiahni: Everyone we've spoken with seems to share one overarching perspective. The most vulnerable are going to be the most sensitive to warmer temperatures. We've talked about this injustice in regard to humans, but one tier down on the scale of vulnerability are of course are native animals.

30:58 Jack: If you do just give up, it's not going to be the humans that are going to be suffering first, it's going to be the threatened species that we work with. So I think that's definitely a big motivator to just be on the ground seeing them working with them and trying to understand them and how to manage them better.

31:14 Katherine: Yeah, we get a lot of satisfaction from walking around and seeing Numbats where they should be and seeing things working as it should be. And I don't want to live in a world where there are cockroaches and house mice and not much else.

31:27 Tiahni: We leave Secret Rocks in the heat of the afternoon, the sun directly above us. Numbats and bilbies, wise to the heat are surely tucked away in their cool burrows. I'm a sweaty, flushed mess yet strangely energised. The scientists' urgency is contagious - a reminder of the critical need for action. 

Despite the looming challenges, I feel hope. There are so many avenues to tackle this problem. So many brilliant minds at work. Whether you're a frontline hero like Katherine and Jack battling the sun to track and collar animals, or a strategic thinker like the Numbat in its cool burrow working intelligently and efficiently from a place of shelter, every contribution brings us closer to the answers we need to protect these species and ourselves from the harsh reality of a warming planet. I might be hot, dusty and exhausted, but I'm optimistic. 

We'd like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the lands and waters we've created this podcast. We would like to extend this acknowledgment to the places you're listening from and pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have cared for country for over 65,000 years and we thank them for their custodianship and stewardship of these beautiful land.

Our theme music was generously contributed by the Orbweavers. Thanks to Rory Noke from Pod Booth, Adelaide for his expertise and guidance. Big thanks to Katherine Moseby and John Reed for hosting us at Secret Rocks. And thank you to Catherine Tuft and Arid Recovery. Thanks to Jack Bilby and other scientists, we spent the day with there and to Gareth Catt, Clive Hamilton and Rebecca Spindler. 

This episode was recorded on Barngarla, Wurrundjerri and Garang Garang Country and was produced by Gus Goswell, Will Sacre and myself, Tiahni Adamson, with help from Jill Risbieth. Mixed by Mike Williams. We'll share a link to the work of some of the wonderful people we spoke with in the show notes.

Rebecca Spindler has sadly finished up with Bush heritage as of June 2025. She will be sorely missed and her impact with us has been nothing less than extraordinary.

Next time we're on the road in south-west Western Australia, an international biodiversity hotspot and one of the oldest on Earth. We'll find out how different types of landholders are working towards similar goals, all for the love of nature. You won't want to miss it.